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[pegandtap]

What both companies have done and are doing to employees is beyond reason. Give excellent pubs less trading hours that depletes business and give dead dog pubs the same hours that were already trading badly within those hours. Reward laziness and punish hard work - beyond reason? No sky tv, no advertising, low price own brand beer and lagers, no support of pub teams, no live entertainment, very limited trading hours, great cuts in bar staff hours. No support for enterprise - no trust in managers, blanket policies throughout - beyond all reason. Some of the Oakwell pubs have taken good trade from surrounding 'big breweries' you know, the ones who sell fosters, carlsberg and the dreaded alchopops. The company should be proud of these managers not destroying them. Oakwell sells no other lagers, bitters or mild than its own on draught and in the fridges - no alchopops - the only bottle beers allowed are guiness and manns brown. Imagine the perseverance of these managers to promote uknown beers from an alien part of the country to brainwashed carling drinkers. Oakwell lager comes in 5% abv and at 1.98 per pint. Not to everyones taste but to a stella drinker or  kronenburg it is a taste customers quite readily adapt to. The acorn lager at 3.8% (Ithink) is a light, crisp refreshing pint at 1.77. I personally enjoy a half pint of each then mixed together as one pint. Top class pint and at a very good 1.88. Why give people these kind of prices and products if you are just going to shut the door on the hard earned trade obtained by employees. Again - beyond reason. Getting off my soapbox now. As I said, I wish friends in this company would speak out but I think, as in  Mr Smiths case, it would make no difference . Sorry I have veered off a thread. Best wishes to you all.

[OnTheDrink]

The brewery is in yorkshire! Managers are managed from Barnsley. If someone wanted to keep a business secret, it would be a dead giveaway if they sold their own beer in these secretive outlets especially as the pubs display the same strange trading tactics as the people supplying the beer. All speculation. Whoever these people are I think they should have to stand face to face with the people whose lives they are screwing up and all for giving their utmost to the people who employed them. My friends within this company are distraught and rightly so. Mr H Smith ( I gather from what is said) is the driving force behind sams policies. I see little or no venom being forwarded at Mr O Smith. It all seems to boil down to bullying tactics from both businesses. I will get off your precious website ONTHEDRINK. I thought all sides of the trade as it is today would have been of interest to the readers of this site. Thank you BIGJIM for your comments. You have given a very good insight to the samsmith empire. I for one can only see extreme similarities to Oakwell and sams. My opinion and I am entitled to that opinion. Thank you for all your comments.

I think you're missing my point here - I have absolutely every sympathy with managers who are treated like dirt and I sincerely hope they get some comeback - or better jobs elsewhere as companies like this don't deserve to exist.  I realise there are many similarities with SS in the way it's operated but there is really no way the two are linked in any other way - it's beyond reason. Hump owns several companies but they're all traceable back to the parent, and his personal estate relates to land, not businesses. Re Oliver, I agree that all the venom is directed at Hump, and that's because he deserves it as the force behind all of the stupidity at SS. Oliver seems to do what he's told and I believe the two of them don't speak if they can help it!

[bigjim]

pegandtap

Thanks for starting the thread in the first place - it's been a real eye-opener and stimulated us when we were flagging a bit! Do keep us posted as it is very relevant - and sorry yes the Brewery is in Yorkshire of course - just no pubs.

Cheers

[pegandtap]

The brewery is in yorkshire! Managers are managed from Barnsley. If someone wanted to keep a business secret, it would be a dead giveaway if they sold their own beer in these secretive outlets especially as the pubs display the same strange trading tactics as the people supplying the beer. All speculation. Whoever these people are I think they should have to stand face to face with the people whose lives they are screwing up and all for giving their utmost to the people who employed them. My friends within this company are distraught and rightly so. Mr H Smith ( I gather from what is said) is the driving force behind sams policies. I see little or no venom being forwarded at Mr O Smith. It all seems to boil down to bullying tactics from both businesses. I will get off your precious website ONTHEDRINK. I thought all sides of the trade as it is today would have been of interest to the readers of this site. Thank you BIGJIM for your comments. You have given a very good insight to the samsmith empire. I for one can only see extreme similarities to Oakwell and sams. My opinion and I am entitled to that opinion. Thank you for all your comments.

[bigjim]

I agree a seperate thread would have been a good idea about 20 posts ago - and yes the initial post did say Yorkshire! But we've made progress of sorts I think! lol

[bigjim]

Well this topic has certainly got a bit of discussion going and started generating some heat! I won't rise to the sarcastic comments - lets just say there is a difference of opinion - no proof either way as to ownership.

I've stated my working hypothesis based on what I've learnt of the character of this man - and if there's lots of other secretive pub owning chains out there - maybe he owns them too! I've been on this site long enough to have read loads of cryptic comments and dark hints about Humphrey owning property all over the place - but precious little fact - that's the whole point and partly what this site is all about - shedding a little light on this empire everyone agrees he has - but goes to great lengths to try and hide. So on this basis he could very well own Oakwell as much as a vacant chunk of your high street.   

[OnTheDrink]

ONTHE DRINK. Head office for all admin re pubs and where Ms Booth runs the company from is Barnsley. Head office (registered) is London. Brewery supplies some pubs not in the estate with beers and lagers as guest beers. The known estate outlets are soon to be named on a website that is being set up, I am informed. Only 3 in Leicester, 1 in Loughborough, 3 in Birmingham, 1 in Droitwich, 7 in Nottingham, 1 in alfreton, 2 in liverpool, 1 in crewe, 1 in carlisle, 1 in southport, 4 in manchester, 1 in flint, 1 in runcorn, 1 in warwick and 1 in horncastle. that makes 29 - unsure where 30th is. Makes no difference - the topic was - Is the sam smith style spreading through yorkshire? Employees are getting the same kind of unreasonable treatment within Oakwell as in sams. Loyal hard workers being treated the same as the non achievers or the ones who just dont give a toss as long as they get paid their salary. I admire bigjim for his knowledge and for his backbone to speak his mind. The kind of policies that sams implements (and also Oakwell) strike at the heart of the pub trade and deter good managers to take up the reigns of community pubs or 'the local'. I wish I could convince my friend to speak out but that person is too scared to speak out. No one is stating that it is a fact that the smiths are the secret shareholders of Oakwell/rbnb/rbnc but is it right that innocent people are being so badly treated by faceless businessmen with their own secret agenda. Surely managers are employed to improve or grow their business. The tools to do this are being taken away by the very people who took them on in the first place. The good ones being treated exactly the same as the poor ones by taking away trade. Also, the home page on this site says that this page can be to discuss anything and everything which is exactly what we have been doing.

All very valid points about how this company are treating their staff, but you said yourself that the thread was about the Sams management style spreading through Yorkshire, where this company doesn't operate pubs. Also, bigjim, if you read his post, did indeed try to assume the fact of the Smith brothers being the mystery shareholders behind Oakwell. Surely if we want to discuss this operation a separate thread would be better?

[pegandtap]

ONTHE DRINK. Head office for all admin re pubs and where Ms Booth runs the company from is Barnsley. Head office (registered) is London. Brewery supplies some pubs not in the estate with beers and lagers as guest beers. The known estate outlets are soon to be named on a website that is being set up, I am informed. Only 3 in Leicester, 1 in Loughborough, 3 in Birmingham, 1 in Droitwich, 7 in Nottingham, 1 in alfreton, 2 in liverpool, 1 in crewe, 1 in carlisle, 1 in southport, 4 in manchester, 1 in flint, 1 in runcorn, 1 in warwick and 1 in horncastle. that makes 29 - unsure where 30th is. Makes no difference - the topic was - Is the sam smith style spreading through yorkshire? Employees are getting the same kind of unreasonable treatment within Oakwell as in sams. Loyal hard workers being treated the same as the non achievers or the ones who just dont give a toss as long as they get paid their salary. I admire bigjim for his knowledge and for his backbone to speak his mind. The kind of policies that sams implements (and also Oakwell) strike at the heart of the pub trade and deter good managers to take up the reigns of community pubs or 'the local'. I wish I could convince my friend to speak out but that person is too scared to speak out. No one is stating that it is a fact that the smiths are the secret shareholders of Oakwell/rbnb/rbnc but is it right that innocent people are being so badly treated by faceless businessmen with their own secret agenda. Surely managers are employed to improve or grow their business. The tools to do this are being taken away by the very people who took them on in the first place. The good ones being treated exactly the same as the poor ones by taking away trade. Also, the home page on this site says that this page can be to discuss anything and everything which is exactly what we have been doing.

[OnTheDrink]

Well guys, in the interests of possibly stirring some further media attention - unless of course the producers of the BBC 'Inside Out' programme have been scared off by the almost inevitable solicitors letter - I'm going to suggest that we work on the basis that indeed the mysterious secretive investors behind RBNB and RBNBC Oakwell Brewery are actually Mr Humphrey Smith and his brother Oliver Smith. As it might be said - it has their hallmark all over it.

I really think that whatever the Smiths do to their own estate, there would be absolutely no point whatsoever in their getting involved with what is a comparitively tuppence ha'penny operation and suggesting they are involved is frankly ridiculous, whatever their faults. There are dozens of similar small pub and property operators with equally secretive setups and similar attitudes to their staff - Sam Smith's don't have the exclusive. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest they're involved, the pubs don't sell Sam Smiths beers (always a bit of a giveaway), which is no surprise given they have their own brewery in Barnsley, and their own website suggests they don't have any pubs in Yorkshire, with most, if not all, scattered from Leicester (their head office), Birmingham and up to Carlisle.  Lets stick to facts about the Smiths, and not indulge in fantasy.

[bigjim]

Well guys, in the interests of possibly stirring some further media attention - unless of course the producers of the BBC 'Inside Out' programme have been scared off by the almost inevitable solicitors letter - I'm going to suggest that we work on the basis that indeed the mysterious secretive investors behind RBNB and RBNBC Oakwell Brewery are actually Mr Humphrey Smith and his brother Oliver Smith. As it might be said - it has their hallmark all over it.

I say this, not just in the hope that it serves to irritate Humphrey further (but how else do we get at the guy when he seems to be able to so effectively screw up other peoples lives with impunity?) but because I disagree that 'no-one is interested in his wealth'. I am and so are millions of other people, otherwise publications like the Sunday Times Rich List would not still be published annually and enjoy such notoriety. Don't forget, it was because this publication was on to him that he went 'loopy' in the first place and tried to make all his pubs invisible.

In my view he quite rightly feels that outsiders can in his case come up with a reasonable estimation of his wealth simply by totting up all the real estate and applying some broad guestimate as to the value of each property. Apart from anything else, it's why the pub list on here is so important. We know he and the family own the whole lot through a complicated web of inter-connected private companies and trust funds. They and current and future family members are the beneficial owners of what in essence is a vast empire of real estate - and you can't hide that as the aristocracy have discovered by having all their broad acres listed in the said Rich List. 

Maybe we could have a stab at an estimate ourselves. For example, I seem to remember quite recently 10 London pubs changed hands involving Fullers for £93 million. So, about £10 million each. SSOB have about 30 London pubs - wow thats £300 million or so just there!

Thinking further about Oakwell Brewery, we need to start identifying the pubs they own so that they can be counted in! It's interesting to see where they say the pubs are located - unless I'm mistaken they are in towns that don't have an SSOB presence so this might help to partly answer the question - why do two guys buy another brewery and pub chain when they already own loads - and why do it secretly and not through SSOB? And why be so determined to remain secret investors even when it means pubs not getting licences and losing rating appeals for change of use?

Finally, why all the sudden emphasis on saving staff costs but at the same time there being unlimited funds to do massive and costly refurbs on the historic pubs? It suddenly ocurred to me that the properties - or just the really good ones - might be held in such a way as to be at arms length from the operating companies. It would be reasonable to suppose that the operating side is under severe pressure, but property investment is funded differently from the family fortune and indeed is viewed differently by Humphrey as worthy of investment for the very long term. On the other hand the operating side is just a huge drain at the present time - and in fact will get worse as all his cack-handed initiatives merely serve to lose him more customers irrespective of that holy cow - the price of a pint.   

[pegandtap]

It is the same with RBNB. One pub is earmarked for a £600K makeover and yet the company is slashing wage bills to save money!!!!!!

[OnTheDrink]

It all beggars belief. What kind of investors turn away income in todays climate?

Well guys - what do we think the answer to the question is? What kind of investors can they be? Who can they be?

Interesting question, but the answer is simple: The type of investor who doesn't want extended opening hours, late licences, entertainments, etc, is the type that don't want the local authorities and the police poking their noses in. The sort of investor who wants a substantial cash-generating business with no questions asked. I can only speculate at who that type of investor is, but if I relate to a small company operating in the North East with some 10 "style" bars where this case the ownership is (almost) hidden in a real spaghetti of nested and cross-owned companies, but the true owner is one of the UK's biggest cocaine importers and the purpose of the cash is to launder and legitimise his income.

Sam Smith's is different - Humphrey is unreasonably paranoid but at the end of the day the business is operated in a very old fashioned and private manner, paying little regard to modern niceties, like employment law. If Humphrey became a little more enlightened as to modern standards, it wouldn't cost him a lot more and he'd be able to relax without the constant hassle of tribunals, etc. what always confuses me is the huge amount of money spent on superb, tasteful refurbishments (Princess Louise for example), compared to the chiselling attitude to the company's greatest assets - the staff. Essentialy, Mr Smith, no-one cares how much money you have or what your business is worth, because it's all protected, but the longer you hide things, the more people become interested in your secrets. Someone once told me the only way to keep a secret is to make sure no-one knows you've got one in the first place.

[JettaP]

Maybe a job for the journalist who did the Yorkshire TV programme on Tadcaster and Sam Smiths?
Anybody got his contact details?

[bigjim]

It all beggars belief. What kind of investors turn away income in todays climate?

Well guys - what do we think the answer to the question is? What kind of investors can they be? Who can they be?

[pegandtap]

I know of RBNBC also. I feel so sad for my friends as they have worked hard to build trade. I have been informed that one pub alone stands to lose several thousand pounds worth of trade just through the shortening of trading hours. These are loyal customers who have been treated well and given top class service and good quality beers at low prices. Now the company is virtually saying that well known drinking up adage 'we've had your money - now p**s off'. One of the reasons given was that they have to comply with the national minimum wage. Then they were told that the shareholders were demanding a huge cut in the wages bill. So why are they trashing the pubs making money and not concentrating on the hours of the pubs that are taking none? A busy pub with the correct amount of bar staff hours means that the managers would not have to exceed their hours. Make a nice profit and have happy staff, managers and customers - why change that. I could not believe what I was being told about all this until I was shown the proof. It all beggars belief. What kind of investors turn away income in todays climate?