Author Topic: Cardinal Pub  (Read 3301 times)  Share 

Offline Jo Siedlecka

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Cardinal Pub
« on: May 20 - 2011 »
We have been running a campaign to save the name of the Cardinal Pub, behind Westminster Cathedral, for the past month. Sam Smiths want to change the name to the Windsor Castle and we are hoping to keep the old name. The Cardinal has been used for years by many of the 5,000 parishioners from the Cathedral, we use it for meetings nad dinners as well as after-Mass drinks. The whole area is full of Catholic offices.

The Cardinal was full of paintings and signed photos of past cardinals. The only reason we found out about the change was because we noticed a small sign on the window of the pub, which has been closed for refurbishment for a while. It seems they also may not have planning permission for some of the alterations they are making. We do hope the owners change their minds and respect the views of a large number of their customers.

Jo Siedlecka
editor Independent Catholic News

To see our latest story and the petition go to:
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=18265

Offline DarkieBoy

  • Jet Tec ink cartridges - UK Ink Supplies
  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,918
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Jet Tec ink cartridges - UK Ink Supplies
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #1 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Hi there,

Thank you for your post.  The Cardinal is a relatively new name for this pub.  Samuel Smith's Old Brewery are known for their tradition and high quality refurbishments.  The change of name is a revert to its original name of Windsor Castle, which is in line with current Samuel Smith's Old Brewery.

Personally, I am in support of the pub name being reverted to its original name.

Thank you,

DB.

Offline garybaldy72uk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • BaldyRadio
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #2 on: May 20 - 2011 »


Personally, I am in support of the pub name being reverted to its original name.

Thank you,

DB.

Im intrigued to know why the name was changed in the first place have read a bit about this and i have to say im with you Darkie.

Religion has no place in a boozer IMHO!
Gimme a pint of OB and im happy!

Offline DarkieBoy

  • Jet Tec ink cartridges - UK Ink Supplies
  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,918
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Jet Tec ink cartridges - UK Ink Supplies
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #3 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Reverting to the original pub names is something that I commend Samuel Smith's Old Brewery for.    I too am intrigued to know why the names was changed from Windsor Castle to The Cardinal and also why it was called Windsor Castle in the first place.  Hopefully someone can shed some light on this subject and hopefully Humphrey Smith will stick to his guns (of course he will)?

What I am particularly interested in is the alleged breach of planning permission regulations relating to the pub's refurbishment.  Perhaps the Independent Catholic News or others can expand on this.

DB.

Offline OnTheDrink

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #4 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Humphrey Smith might do a lot wrong but this isn't one of them.

From 'High Street Ken' in today's Independent...

Archbishop Nichols, Ann Widdecombe and a crack squad of angry Catholics have lost their battle to retain the name of a pub behind Westminster Cathedral. The Cardinal was named after Cardinal Manning, a churchman who supported a strike by dock workers in the late 19th century, but the Samuel Smith Brewery is rechristening the establishment "The Windsor Castle" when it reopens in a fortnight's time. Nichols had said changing the pub's name removed a reminder of Manning's good works. Fellow Catholics pointed out that Manning preached temperance ? so naming a pub after him wasn't the most appropriate way to honour his memory.

Ann Widdecombe's reasoning was less than, er, reasoned...

"I think it's extremely silly," she said. "Everywhere you go in London you find a pub has a connection to the area that they're in.
"There's absolutely no connection to Windsor Castle - it's miles away.
"

I think she would also find that Morpeth and Gloucester are also miles away, to name just two places with Westminster pubs named after them.

I wonder what Cardinal Manning himself would have made of all this?  In 1873 he founded The League of the Cross, a total abstinence society. Some advocates for the retention of the pub name are suggesting that Manning would have supported drinking in moderation as a justification for their argument, but the evidence clearly shows this would not be the case.

Cardinal Manning in old age wanted his successor to follow his lead into the temperance movement: ?I pray God that my successor will humbly and with his whole heart go into the midst of the people as I have tried to do?, he wrote in 1890, ?and will give to the League of the Cross a warm and encouraging countenance.? He also wanted his successor to join the prohibitionist United Kingdom Alliance as ?the only real power outside of Parliament to hold the Drink Trade in check?. When Herbert Vaughan attended a dinner of Manchester publicans who advocated winter-gardens and light beers as the agents of temperance, Manning was furious and excluded him from the list of his executors. In many statements from the 1870s onwards Manning expressed his passionate enthusiasm for the temperance movement. His temperance speeches show that he took great trouble to keep his arguments up to date, and that he read widely in temperance literature. Here, then, was no passing enthusiasm, but a cause to which Manning devoted his life after 1868, and for which he laboured through literature as heavy as Dr F. R. Lees' Alliance Prize Essay and the report of the 1853?54 Select Committee on Public-Houses. He travelled about the country on temperance tours, gave evidence before a parliamentary committee on the drink question, and braved much hostility from within the Catholic world by creating the League of the Cross, an association of Catholic abstainers.   A. E. Dingle and B. H. Harrison (1969). V. Cardinal Manning as Temperance Reformer. The Historical Journal.

Surely those supporting the petition to keep the name are doing the late Cardinal a posthumous disservice as it seems highly likely he'd be spinning in his grave at having a pub named in his memory!

The Windsor Castle was only renamed The Cardinal in the 1950s so the name is scarcely historic, and finally, do the Catholics of London not have more pressing matters to protest about?

Offline garybaldy72uk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 50
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • BaldyRadio
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #5 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Well you learn something new everyday ..... and i think your right The Catholic Church has a Lot more to deal with than a Pub!
Gimme a pint of OB and im happy!

Offline ian

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,023
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #6 on: May 20 - 2011 »
One Question springs to mind from the OP.

Dose the Cathedral hold 5000 never mind having 5000 attend every week.

As for the name, if it was called the Windsor Castle then what's all the fuss about if Sam's want to change it back.

ian.

Offline ian

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,023
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #7 on: May 20 - 2011 »
This reminds me about the petitions that RAF Fylingdale (a US spy station) on the North York Moors had years ago.  First the locals had a petition because it was being built. Then a petition when they took (the golf balls) it back down. 

You can't please all of the people all of the time, so why try.

ian.

Offline bigjim

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 457
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #8 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Well, it's always difficult commenting on a pub unseen, but in the interests of balance, here goes. There is a well known problem in the heritage business and it goes something like this - 'here we have an historic building, x years old, much messed about, we want to restore it, but back to exactly what point in time?'

'Heritage' is a continually moving concept of course. Here we have a pub that changed it's name in the 1950's, but subsequently has apparently built up a 'new' heritage tradition associated with the Cathedral next door. It sounds like lots of ephemera associated with this usage has built up and in my view extremely worrying if it is discarded as part of the refit. I can understand Humphrey's thinking to a certain extent, but I always get very fed up when existing customers wishes are not taken into account when a pub owner refurbishes.

I think at the very least it would be a good gesture to give the users of the Cathedral the pictures etc if they are to be removed from the pub - and why not the old pub sign perhaps if space inside cannot be found to record this further name change. In essence, it's all now part of this pubs heritage, a story to be recorded and pored over by generations of drinkers yet to come. 

PS - the subject seems to be attracting as much publicity as the - well you know - 'kissing' incident. Here's a blog I found supporting the argument to change the name back.

  http://areluctantsinner.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-cardinal-pub-should-revert-to-its.html 

PPS - blimey it seems Humphrey has been in negotiations to hand over all the pictures and old pub sign all along! Nice one Humph! 
« Last Edit: May 20 - 2011 by bigjim »

Offline bigjim

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 457
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #9 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Shock horror - The Independent Catholic News reports - 'Response from Brewers'

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=18265


Don't panic - the response is - no response!

Offline OnTheDrink

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #10 on: May 20 - 2011 »
I think at the very least it would be a good gesture to give the users of the Cathedral the pictures etc if they are to be removed from the pub - and why not the old pub sign perhaps if space inside cannot be found to record this further name change. In essence, it's all now part of this pubs heritage, a story to be recorded and pored over by generations of drinkers yet to come. 

Couldn't agree more. 'Heritage' is certainly a moving situation and I'm sure this will be just one chapter in the history of the pub which, to be honest, doesn't seem to be very remarkable, certainly not a rich as many of the other Sam's London pubs.

Offline OnTheDrink

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #11 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Shock horror - The Independent Catholic News reports - 'Response from Brewers'

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=18265


Don't panic - the response is - no response!

You'll notice the writer, and editor, are the same chap who started this thread!  I laughed when I saw Simon Poynton being named as a Press Officer.  I know he wears a lot of hats but I doubt that's one of them!

Offline Jo Siedlecka

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #12 on: May 20 - 2011 »
 If it wasn't for us customers, pubs would go out of business. In fact they are going out of business at the rate of four a week. 

The customers of this back street pub, called the Cardinal since the 1950s, have mostly come from the Cathedral and other church offices in the area. That is why is was given its name - and previous landlords were happy to put up our pictures while they put our money in their cash registers. 

It would be good business surely to consult with the customers before making such a big change.

And it would be just  good manners to write a letter in response to the letter and petition which was signed by many more than 1000 people.

You are a long way off up there in Yorkshire and maybe don't realise the strength of feeling down here in London.

If you don't respond to the letter or offer any sort of compromise (such as a double sign or Cardinal Bar) you will lose the goodwill and custom of many people. There are plenty of other pubs quite near that we can can go to instead.

Offline ian

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,023
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #13 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Jo this forum dose not belong to Sam Smith's so your preaching to the wrong people.

ian.

Offline Jo Siedlecka

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Cardinal Pub
« Reply #14 on: May 20 - 2011 »
Of course. But you say in your description of the blog 'Send a message to the Smiths' . So that's what I have done. Judging by the tone of the comments (all from people too shy to give their own names) some people on this forum might not be working a million miles away from the SS headquarters.

One voiced surprise at Simon Poynton being the SS press officer. Well - I thought that because when I have rung the brewers and asked to speak to the press office, the lady who answers always puts me through to 'Simon's' answermachine. My friends at the BBC had the same experience. I'm beginning to think the company is very small indeed and doesn't have a press officer.

I trust they will have time to respond to my last message.

Kind regards

Josephine Siedlecka




I'm begi