Support for Cropton Brewery's White Rose

[DarkieBoy]

Dear All,

Please state here why you believe that Cropton Brewery should use/continue to use the White Rose on their bottles, pump clips, etc.

DB.

[OnTheDrink]

I support their use because although Sam Smith's Rose is a protected trademark, The label on Cropton's Warrior is mainly the equally trademarked Yorkshire Regiment badge, in which a white and very different rose is an integral feature.  The Sam Smith's rose isn't anywhere near as much of a major feature of its packaging, with the patented designs of bottle and label ensuring the brand remains highly distinctive and unique.

Sam Smiths seems to be saying that it has no confidence in its branding here, but as Cromwell pointed out in another thread, the rose is just a diversion to lend an emotive angle to Sam Smiths corporate bullying of a much smaller competitor. 

Remember this is just about one bottled beer as Cropton don't use the rose on any other branding.

[pintplease]

In this instance I think Sam's are correct, most established companies have brand names or logo's/images that the public relate to a particular company.
Sam's appear to be saying, according to the newspaper reports, that they don't have a problem with other companies who are not selling ale using the white rose as no confusion would then arise.
When another brewery uses the same or similar white rose trade mark its understandable that there would be a challenge.
I think the arguments about the charity issue are irrelevant, emotive, and will possibly be disregarded.
Challenges over trade marks between businesses are common.

[jboycott]

I agree entirely with pintplease, and would repeat my earlier comment that some posters seem to automatically take against anything SS do, in this case taking the side of another brewer.
All copyright type disputes are to some extent to "kill off the competition", in this instance the other brewer has an angle which appeals to some Sam's customers, such as Cromwell. These customers may, for instance, have their eye caught by a bottle of beer in the supermarket with a white rose on it; if bought it is feasibly one less bottle of Sam's sold. This is how marketing works. I personally would still buy the Sam's, and prefer to make my own contributions to my own choice of charities rather than have them dictated to me by an organisation which at the end of the day is out to make a profit out of me.
 Sorry if once again this is introducing "politics" into the debate but I think it's hard to avoid.

[OnTheDrink]

I agree entirely with pintplease, and would repeat my earlier comment that some posters seem to automatically take against anything SS do, in this case taking the side of another brewer.
All copyright type disputes are to some extent to "kill off the competition", in this instance the other brewer has an angle which appeals to some Sam's customers, such as Cromwell. These customers may, for instance, have their eye caught by a bottle of beer in the supermarket with a white rose on it; if bought it is feasibly one less bottle of Sam's sold. This is how marketing works. I personally would still buy the Sam's, and prefer to make my own contributions to my own choice of charities rather than have them dictated to me by an organisation which at the end of the day is out to make a profit out of me.
 Sorry if once again this is introducing "politics" into the debate but I think it's hard to avoid.

If I thought for one second Sam Smith's had a valid point I'd be supportive. Competition isn't an issue as the quantity of beer we're talking about here is tiny: Cropton only produce a total of 60 barrels per week which I'd estimate to be significantly less than 1% of Sam Smith's production. I'd also be very surprised if there was an opportunity for confusion as I doubt that Cropton's bottled beers sell alongside Sam Smiths in anything more than a handful of smaller outlets as Sams don't supply supermarkets, and, incredibly, witnesses are being asked by Sams counsel to comment on photographs of the beers!  I've also ignored the charity angle though as I don't think that's got much relevance to the real issue here which is Humphrey Smith's spurious and disproprtionate use of legal action, yet again.

[centurion]

Sam's don't supply supermarkets.

Yes they do, carefully selected. Similar to carefully selected witnesses 

Humphrey Smith's spurious and disproportionate use of legal action.

Bit like a certain toy shop, now there's a thought for an independent chain, Pubs 'R' Us 

[OnTheDrink]

Sam's don't supply supermarkets.

Yes they do, carefully selected. Similar to carefully selected witnesses 

Aye - I noticed they included the Manchester golden boy!   I'm assuming the few supermarkets they supply won't be the national chains then?

[jboycott]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

[centurion]

Sam's don't supply supermarkets.

Yes they do, carefully selected. Similar to carefully selected witnesses 

Aye - I noticed they included the Manchester golden boy!   I'm assuming the few supermarkets they supply won't be the national chains then?

Waitrose, sainsburys, Booth & Howarth.

[DarkieBoy]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

Come on jboycott, the Yorkshire Rose on the Cropton bottle is nothing like the highly stylised upside-down gold, black and white badge that Samuel Smith's Brewery use.

DB.

[OnTheDrink]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

The whole point of the legal action is over the alleged 'passing off' by Cropton, where Sam Smiths are holding that a potential buyer could be confused over the two products. If neither are widely available in the same place, how could you buy one or the other if there wasn't a choice to make in the first place?

[centurion]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

So who in fact stocks this 'Warrior' Ale. Perhaps one can give support with a purchase. 

PS back soon, off for my Tea, (Ringtons).

[OnTheDrink]

Sam's don't supply supermarkets.

Yes they do, carefully selected. Similar to carefully selected witnesses 

Aye - I noticed they included the Manchester golden boy!   I'm assuming the few supermarkets they supply won't be the national chains then?

Waitrose, sainsburys, Booth & Howarth.

Ah, I was thinking Booths maybe, but the others must be restricted geographically as none of my local Sainsburys or Waitrose sell Sams (more the pity).

[jboycott]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

Come on jboycott, the Yorkshire Rose on the Cropton bottle is nothing like the highly stylised upside-down gold, black and white badge that Samuel Smith's Brewery use.

DB.

And now you know about it would it get your attention on the shelf?

[centurion]

I never said that the bottles had to be in the same shop or that you had to be confused, merely that you bought one instead of the other.

Come on jboycott, the Yorkshire Rose on the Cropton bottle is nothing like the highly stylised upside-down gold, black and white badge that Samuel Smith's Brewery use.

DB.

And know you know about it would it get your attention on the shelf?

Sorry, Yes, Warrior the same as Bombadier, Spitfire, etc.

Now it is tea time.