Unreasonable demands on this website by the Samuel Smiths Brewery?

[The Webmaster]

BACKGROUND..


I received a telephone call from Max (Admin) yesterday, which is very rare. He's back in the US, dealing with some important business. Apparently he received an email from a Christian Horton (anyone know who/what he is?) of the brewery, with a list of demands.

Max didn't seem too happy, and asked me to deal with a graphics issue (details below), and a response email, which he drafted.
 
These were the brewery's demands..

• Samuel Smith is the owner of registered trademark 1006571 (Rose Device) ? kindly remove this trademark entirely from behind the ?FORUM? label on your website.
• Please arrange to change the title of your website ?Sam Smith?s Forum?, removing the priority given to the words ?Sam Smith?s?.
• Please change the font style of the words ?Sam Smith?s? so that the letter style is less similar to the Olde English font that Samuel Smith typically uses.

This is how I've been instructed to respond..

Mr Horton,

Max currently has too many work commitments, to be able to deal with your message directly, and has instructed me to respond in the following manner.

1. We were not displaying your trademark in any real discernable form. However as a demonstration of goodwill, I have been asked to ensure that the rose on our header logo, is a Tudor Rose (as used by East Riding of Yorkshire Council, The English Tourist Board and part of the logo of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom) - of which the brewery have no jurisdiction over. Please note: Section 4 of the Trade Marks Act 1994 excludes from registration specially protected emblems.

2. Samuel Smiths Old Brewery (Tadcaster), does not own the name 'Sam Smiths'. This request is completely unreasonable. The website title is, and always has been known as 'Sam Smiths' - as the domain name suggests, and which gives the reader a clue to the main topic!

3. The font we use is not an 'Olde English' font, but a Gothic/Tudor style - and was chosen to specifically not be the same as used by the brewery. The brewery does not have a legal monopoly on a historic styling, which is part of every English persons heritage. Again, this demand is unreasonable.

As previously mentioned - our website clearly states our complete 'non association' with the brewery. We also refrained from placing any pub or brewery associated graphics on our identity heading, or home page, such as for example, a bar with beer pumps, beer barrels, or a typical English pub, etc.

As you know, with respect to any future suggestion 'passing off', we are not in your industry, and we are not a competitor. We provide a moderated public forum, constituting journalism of which the main topic is Samuel Smiths Old Brewery (Tadcaster). During the process of journalism, it is quite typical, for graphics associated with the topic to be used, as in this case by the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14255214

As I'm sure you will agree, even Samuel Smiths Brewery, and Mr Humphrey Smith, must respect the freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press, without which, our society could become a very dangerous one, and which many of our ancestry gave the greatest sacrifice - their lives - to protect!

Regards,




Jim
samsmiths.info
Webmaster

So as you can see, Max has had me changed the title header. Have any of you noticed? Here is the old and new below..

So now it's over to you, with a simple poll. Are the brewery demands on this website unreasonable?

[DarkieBoy]

I believe that Mr. Chris Horton is in "marketing" at the brewery (easy job)!

See: http://samsmiths.info/forum/index.php/topic,261.msg473.html#msg473

DB.

[OnTheDrink]

Chris Horton seems to be the Marketing Manager or similar but seems to be HS's deputy in many matters.

The demands are not only unreasonable, they're silly.

No trademark is displayed on the website, as the graphic merely depicts the edges of a generic rose so how he thinks you can 'hide' something behind another image on a two dimensional image beggars belief. The registered trademark is of a very specific design and as we've recently seen, use of a similar design was found to have caused potential confusion over trademark protection, but this is an enthusiasts website so no confusion could occur. Additionally, Mr Horton seems confused over the difference between Trademark and Copyright. If the rose was used it would not be a trademark infringement but a breach of copyright. Presumably the lawyers have already laughed at him otherwise it wouldn't have been an email request but a barrage of solicitors letters that were received.

As for changing the name, this site is called Sam Smiths. Not Samuel Smith which is trademarked, in relation to the production and sale of Beer, ale lager and porter. Not websites. The difference serves to emphasise the fact that this is an enthusiasts website that uses a nickname for the company as its own title. There is no infringement of either company registered name or trademark.

The website logo font bears little resemblance to the font used by Samuel Smith which, by the way, is the Old English Text monotype font.  It's installed with Microsoft Office for free non-commercial use but the copyright is owned by the Agfa Monotype Corporation and commercial use should be licensed.

Copyright: Typeface ? of The Monotype Corporation plc. Data ? of The Monotype Corporation plc/Type Solutions Inc. 1990-91-92 All rights reserved. Portions ? 1992 Microsoft Corp. All rights reserved.
Trademark: Monotype Old English ? Trademark of The Monotype Corporation plc registered in the US Pat & TM Off. and elsewhere.

There is no confusion here, as fonts are like fingerprints, so I wonder if Samuel Smiths have actually licensed the use of the font themselves? I'm thinking perhaps not.

[moleinahole]

There is no confusion here, as fonts are like fingerprints, so I wonder if Samuel Smiths have actually licensed the use of the font themselves? I'm thinking perhaps not.

OnTheDrink - a most excellent post! 

[DarkieBoy]

I wonder if http://www.samsmithtravel.com have been contacted by the Brewery yet??? 

DB.

[moleinahole]

Here's some more for the brewery to try and bully.. 

http://www.samsmith.co.uk/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/presenter/

http://www.samsmithphotography.co.uk/

http://www.sam-smith.org/

http://www.samjohnsmith.co.uk/

[DarkieBoy]

Humphrey Smith and Samuel Smith's Brewery have their work cut out.  Just look at all the images on Google:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=samuel+smith+brewery&gs_sm=sc&gs_upl=3379l6392l0l8406l12l10l1l0l0l0l320l2222l0.1.6.2l9l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1024&bih=629&pdl=300&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
About 4,510,000 results (0.25 seconds)

DB.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

Very well thought post and information onthedrink. So Humphrey seems to have a few deputies in the office. Christian Horton Marketing, Simon Poynton Exports and spokesman and Mark Butler Company Secretary. Wonder where Sam Smith Jnr will eventually fit in.

Humphrey is going to end up taking on the whole of Yorkshire for the rose and any company or organisation with Smith in it. Much work for Humphrey to be getting on with

[ian]

I wonder If this is a practice run before taking on the East Yorkshire County Council?

You can just see the letter...............   We " Samuel  Smith's" demand that you stop using our white rose emblem  on your 170 villages and town signs.  Just in case you don't know we "Samuel Smith's" owns the white rose copyright not you.


http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1984477


Come on Sam's stop picking on the small guys.  Take on the the big guys, that is of course, if you dare.

ian.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

Just wonder where this is all going to end and who wins. Do we need to have a guess or not

Humphrey seems to not be bothered by how big or how much money it takes to get his own way.

[minsterman]

A public example of typical brewery bullying tactics. It's a pity they couldn't spend their time addressing serious issues, such as the overall management of their pubs (and it's managers and staff). 

Let's face it, the way the place is being run at the moment - no one in their right mind would want anyone to think that they have some connection / association with the brewery!!!

[OldBreweryDrinker]

I agree minsterman, the brewery should start trying to look after the existing managers (which aer left) and retaining some of the good new ones. Before nobody wants to work for Humphrey and his company. Surely with the high turnover the last few years, it msut getting harder and harder to find new people willing to run his pubs. I know several that are struggling to find people and just end up with relief after relief manager running it for a few weeks. No consistency.

[tad]

I just read this post and had to respond with an outstanding

un - be - liev - able!

This really does make you wonder whether or not someone is playing with a full deck.

What's next? having to place acknowledgments on the end of a sentence just in case someone said it before?

 
It's unbelievable (courtesy of EMF)

I want to break free (courtesy of Queen) not to be mistaken for "HRH The Queen" and in no way linked to the Royals.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

I just read this post and had to respond with an outstanding

un - be - liev - able!

This really does make you wonder whether or not someone is playing with a full deck.

What's next? having to place acknowledgments on the end of a sentence just in case someone said it before?

 
It's unbelievable (courtesy of EMF)

I want to break free (courtesy of Queen) not to be mistaken for "HRH The Queen" and in no way linked to the Royals.

It is unbelievable and i don't see how SSOB thought they would get away with it.

[OnTheDrink]

What happened with this? I assume Sam went away?