New Interesting sign

[OldBreweryDrinker]

When visiting a Sam's Pub last night i noticed this and the manager said that it had arrived this morning. Anyone else seen this new notice ?

[centurion]

Yes.

[ian]

Not seen that notice myself, just the one saying if you want a top up just ask.

ian.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

Not seen that notice myself, just the one saying if you want a top up just ask.

ian.

As i said it arrived Saturday morning with a memo apparently stating about a new agreement between the brewery and trading standards. The new sign replaces the old one, so i assume that it will appear in all the pubs over time

[OnTheDrink]

The original statement from the then BRLA included this line: "a head of froth is excessive and unreasonable if the measure of draught beer does not contain a minimum of 95% liquid after the collapse of the head".

The courts have upheld the legal position concerning the quantity of beer served and case law has established that in relation to certain beers the head of froth is an integral part of what is purported to be sold provided it is not excessive or unreasonable in the light of what the customer was taken to be ordering. A pint served in a brim measure may consist of liquid and a reasonable head.

The British Beer & Pub Association abbreviated guidelines actually say:

- A measure of beer served with a head must include a minimum of 95% liquid.
- The beer should not be made available to the customer until bar staff are satisfied with the measure.
- Requests from customers for top-ups should be received with good grace and never refused, subject to avoiding spillage of liquid.

This all goes back to 1995 and the (still valid) full guidance document can be downloaded on this page... http://www.beerandpub.com/industryArticle.aspx?articleId=76

Anyway, a pint that's going to be 95% liquid once the head has collapsed is going to be acceptably full to me but does anyone think that, realistically, it's ever going to happen?  To me, they key part of the guidelines is this line: The beer should not be made available to the customer until bar staff are satisfied with the measure, which effectively means the pint shouldn't be handed over until the 95% liquid is achieved.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

The original statement from the then BRLA included this line: "a head of froth is excessive and unreasonable if the measure of draught beer does not contain a minimum of 95% liquid after the collapse of the head".

The courts have upheld the legal position concerning the quantity of beer served and case law has established that in relation to certain beers the head of froth is an integral part of what is purported to be sold provided it is not excessive or unreasonable in the light of what the customer was taken to be ordering. A pint served in a brim measure may consist of liquid and a reasonable head.



The British Beer & Pub Association abbreviated guidelines actually say:

- A measure of beer served with a head must include a minimum of 95% liquid.
- The beer should not be made available to the customer until bar staff are satisfied with the measure.
- Requests from customers for top-ups should be received with good grace and never refused, subject to avoiding spillage of liquid.

This all goes back to 1995 and the (still valid) full guidance document can be downloaded on this page... http://www.beerandpub.com/industryArticle.aspx?articleId=76

Anyway, a pint that's going to be 95% liquid once the head has collapsed is going to be acceptably full to me but does anyone think that, realistically, it's ever going to happen?  To me, they key part of the guidelines is this line: The beer should not be made available to the customer until bar staff are satisfied with the measure, which effectively means the pint shouldn't be handed over until the 95% liquid is achieved.

Thanks for that information. More than the brewery mentioned in the memo

[DarkieBoy]

Which pub was this in?

DB?

[OnTheDrink]

Which pub was this in?

DB?

It would seem all of them! just seen the offending item in my office. Spoke to the  Trading Standards boss of the neighbouring council and he reckons its illegal because it effectively contradicts the law in that beer is not dispensed according to the proscribed measures, regardless of case law.

[OldBreweryDrinker]

Out of 6 SS pub's ive been to over the weekend only 3 had the new sign displayed. So much for the important memo from H R W Smith

[ian]

In the past few weeks I've been in quite a few Sam Smith's public houses and in one I say this notice..................

If you read this notice very carefully, it states that you will only get 95% of a pint even if you ask for a top up.  Now maybe it might be me and I've read it wrong. I'll leave it up to you to tell me if I'm wrong.

[BlackDog]

No - a minimum of 95% MAY be served but you are within your rights to request a top up.

[OnTheDrink]

No - a minimum of 95% MAY be served but you are within your rights to request a top up.

Ian's right. The notice states that if the 95% isn't achieved then you may request a top-up, and the clear implication is that the top-up is only to achieve the 95%.

There's another thread about this and I've been told by a fairly senior trading standards officer that the notice is illegal as it contradicts the legal serving of pints in measures of one half of a pint or one pint, despite the accepted guidelines that acknowledge that it's very difficult to serve a 100% full pint.

[DarkieBoy]

We've got this in Widow Cullen's Well and it is appearing in many Samuel Smith's pubs.  The first statement is fine in my opinion and I do not dispute it.

My questions would be "What is Trade Guidance?" and what "Trade" organisation is stating the said guidance, as to me it is contrary to HMRC Weights & Measures regulations, which takes primacy over "Trade Guidance".

TEST: Take a 500ml bottle of beer and pour it into a pint glass and look at where it comes to.  You will find that it is not too far from the top, despite being 68ml (more than 10%) short of a pint.  Compare it to a pub-served pint (any pub, not just Samuel Smith's) and you will see that it is usually served far shorter than 500ml.  This is why I am an advocate of over-sized pint glasses with pint lines on them (just like the Pure Brewed Lager glasses).

I also seem to recall that some time ago CAMRA produced a credit card-sized device that you held up to your pint to see how short it was in order to give you some idea of how much out of pocket you are.  If anyone has one, then I would not mind seeing it and perhaps reproducing something similar to it.

DB.

[DarkieBoy]

No - a minimum of 95% MAY be served but you are within your rights to request a top up.

Ian's right. The notice states that if the 95% isn't achieved then you may request a top-up, and the clear implication is that the top-up is only to achieve the 95%.

There's another thread about this and I've been told by a fairly senior trading standards officer that the notice is illegal as it contradicts the legal serving of pints in measures of one half of a pint or one pint, despite the accepted guidelines that acknowledge that it's very difficult to serve a 100% full pint.

It's really easy to serve a full pint of beer - in an over-sized pint glass.  Pure Brewed Lager drinkers don't get ripped off, so why should Old Brewery Bitter drinkers get ripped off?

DB.

[OnTheDrink]

It's really easy to serve a full pint of beer - in an over-sized pint glass.  Pure Brewed Lager drinkers don't get ripped off, so why should Old Brewery Bitter drinkers get ripped off?

DB.

I agree, except you would then often receive more than a pint, and new lined glasses for every pub would cost. Those additional costs would just be passed on so the customer would lose anyway. A few overfilled pints of pure brewed and Wheat Beer don't affect the margins that much and Hump's already forked out for branded glassware, and the prices of both are far higher, funnily enough!